Last year, I noticed that several producers were using an odd timing in their mixes that won't beatmatch with anything. Now, I'm starting to run across more. The sound has a slinky filtred tone to it and several of the mixes have bouncing percussion that alternates with the bass. I ran across this in the Jamie Sanchez mix of "Manhunt" and the Digital Dog of "Crazy Possessive." Now, I see that Dave Aude and Mike Rizzo have used this technique on Sun's "Fancy Free" and Digital Dog is at it again on Alexandra Burke's "Broken Heels." That last song, I can't even get the timing right, because it show 86 BPM, when it's clearly faster than that. If I change the tempo, then it sounds too fast. I did get Dave Aude's mix of "Fancy Free" to mix with Adam Lambert's "For Your Entertainment" with DJ Escape doing the remix honors (which also uses the same technique), but that's it. The funny thing is that by all accounts, they should NOT sound great together because they were in two completely different keys (i.e. G# and G).

Has anyone else run across these problems and if so, what did you do to fix it, short of a "stop and go" approach. I'm afraid that more producers will be experimenting with this style, which by all accounts sounds great. However, it's just making my job that much more difficult and I would sure like to find a way to make it work.

I know there can be a lot of different viewpoints on this, I'll just get the ball rolling for the sake of conversation ...

First of all, it sounds like these producers are edging away from the steady beat and getting on over closer to syncopation or broken beats or dubstep or whathaveyou ... a lot of these are the downtempo stock in trade. If that's the case, then yes, straight-up beat-matching just got more elusive and the other tools in the tool box will start coming into play ... and while the toolbox a bit more extensive than just the 'stop and go' option, it's also true that the software won't do most of this kind of mxing for you, so it's true that it will make work more difficult ...

Now I haven't heard the tracks you're name-checking so I could be completely off base, but from your description that's what it sounds like.

As for the key issue, remember that songs change key but MM assigns a key that is averaged somehow (it's the predominant key). So a track may begin and end in a key that makes it work with another track, though the program indicates that they are two different incompatible keys. If you are mixing for flow, your familiarity with your tracks will suggest combos to you and your ears will tell you if they'll work harmonically, despite MM indicating otherwise.

Broken beats sounds more like it. Pivot is going to be the way to go, but finding the right tunes to paste together is another story. Funny, back in the day I used to be real good at that. I would use two decks to paste together an entire mix LOL. Nevertheless, I'll looking to do just that as I see the direction a lot of these producers are heading. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by K j A M:
...back in the day I used to be real good at that. I would use two decks to paste together an entire mix LOL.

It's like riding a bicycle, it comes back And the way that ability expands your choice of musical selections is well worth the extra effort, IMHO ... Let us know how it goes.

I downloaded the Dave Aude Club Mix of Fancy Free and the Escape and Johnny Vicious Tribal Mix of For Your Entertainment, as well as Digital Dog's mix of Broken Heels. After listening and working with them, here are my observations...

First, MM doesn't get all the measure markers correct on Fancy Free. I had to tweak most of them. The rather strong syncopation throws MM's algorithm off, apparently.

Once I got the measure markers corrected, I tried to mix in For Your Entertainment (FYE), and you're right! It sounds like a train wreck even though technically the beats line up perfectly.

I think there's a couple of things going on with Fancy Free that complicates matters. The first is the synth's use of the reverse attack towards the end of the track. The other challenging sound is the syncopated bass synth that is introduced very close to the end of the track. Yikes! So while you've got your four on the floor typical house bass beat, you also have to deal with another bass sound on the up beat.

I got FYE to mix rather nicely going from the Richard Vission Solmatic Remix of Black Eyed Peas' Meet Me Halfway, so I think the entire problem lies in Fancy Free. I got "OK" results by simply taking out Fancy Free's bass early in the transition, relying on FYE's bass to fill in. But I agree -- it's a challenging one.

Broken Heels -- wow! It's FAST! MM calculates the beat at 83 BPM on my machine, but if you right click on the track and choose Edit Tag... you'll see the 83 BPM, and to the right there's a 2x button. Click it and the BPM changes to 166. So the BPM really is 83 x 2, or 166. As you no doubt know, that kind of tempo is practically unheard of in screaming diva house! (And yes, Broken Heels is probably just on the cusp of screaming diva, but still! ) The only thing I can think of to transition to such a fast track is an immediate change to the fast tempo (The Drop), or use some kind of cymbal crash at the end of the song prior to Broken Heels, let the crash decay just a bit, then bring in the track at 166 BPM (kind of like The Interval).

I hope this helps!

By the way, KjAM, do you have a regular club gig in Atlanta? I go dancing every so often and would like to hear your beats!

Hey Todd,

Thanks for the insight. For now, I bypassed those mixes and went with alternatives, but it will be something I'll be forced to eventually deal with. I did try stripping out the bassline in the Jose Spinnin mix of "Manhunt" and allow the next song to fill it in, but then there was a problem with alternating symbols that were still clashing pretty badly. Talk about something that can really kill the flow!

As for playing around Atlanta; that's something I've been trying to avoid, but will likely get back into soon due to financial necessity. Truth is, I haven't played live since 2001 and even then technology hadn't quite caught up like it has now. If I do, it'll be like the first day school LOL.

Thanks again.

Something that I've recently attempted that is at least different for me is to crop the outgoing track all the way back to it's last "break" if it has one...that portion of the track without drums. And I often need to crop an appreciable amount of the front end of the incoming track if simple crossfading doesn't work. I then gradually fade in the incoming track, akin to that "Mist Effect". Sometimes I have to extend the Intro Sprocket to the left rather than the right to reach the "correct" transition point. And I always have to be creative with the track volumes coming and going in these cases - serious zigzags. Although major portions of one or both tracks are cropped, the meat of the tracks remain and that's better than eliminating the track entirely.

Also, in response to a previous comment regarding incompatible keys, I don't hesitate to trust my ears. After adding a track to the mix and adjusting the sprockets, I minimize MixMeister so that my eyes don't dictate to my ears while I review the transition. I'll stare at my wallpaper. I then modify the track Properties to convert the key up or down as necessary...sometimes I go through (-2) to (+2) until I find a setting that my ear likes. For example, in my last mix, all the tracks were selected from (Dm), in ascending beat order from 120 to 130. However I converted two successive tracks to (D#m) because my ear said so.

Now here is something that doesn't get brought up much, but I think it is really important:

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Baltimore Boogie Man:
... I don't hesitate to trust my ears. After adding a track to the mix and adjusting the sprockets, I minimize MixMeister so that my eyes don't dictate to my ears while I review the transition. I'll stare at my wallpaper. ....

How many times have we uploaded something or burned it to disc only to decide "Yikes, something moved!" Actually, I think your brain really does work to accommodate what your eyes tell you "must be right because it looks right." This makes it important to audition your mix away from the computer, and without watching the timeline while listening ... let the mix creep up on you 'blind' without any visual input from the program -- then the spots that still need work are much more evident ...

@MadameFLY I totally agree. Previewing the mix away from the computer is the best way for me to determine how it's going to sound in someone's car, ipod or home stereo. That's where I (more often than not) find an oops, what was I thinking moment in the mix.

The visual aspect of the waveform is only important to me when making specific adjustments to the beatmatching. If my ears are not liking it, then I need to go back in and move the beats slightly ahead or behind to get a smoother transition. When you look at it up close, you'll sometimes find that the beats have a fraction added onto the actual beat. I call these dirty beats. For the longest time I couldn't figure out why it sounded slightly off until I started zooming in. That's when I realized that shifting gave me what I wanted, even though technically the beats didn't appear to be properly aligned.

Once I know that about a song, I immediately save the new adjustments as the "default" for that song. Works everytime I use again mixing with something else.