Hi Guys,

I am posting this message because I would really like to be able to use Fusion (cos I think it looks great, and I like the 'workflow' arrangement), but I am not getting the sound quality that I need from it. It might be me though - so you will see that I have also posted the sample I was working from - with the hope that one of you will be able to find a way of getting the best from the software.

All programs are playing the same sample from Big Time Disco. Because I only have demos of 5 & Fusion, I mostly captured the sound to disk using SPDIF via DAT (and back again same route). The captures match perfectly what I hear straight out of the system.

The place to listen - is ujst before the crushendo... you will hear the sound like a racing car in the background...


1. First up, Windows Media Player (6.5MB):
http://www.domain-hostess.co.uk/users/exp/wmplayer.wav

2. Next up, Ableton Live 5 (7.5MB):
http://www.domain-hostess.co.uk/users/exp/ableton.wav

3. Putting in a suprisingly good performance, MM Pro 5 (6MB):
http://www.domain-hostess.co.uk/users/exp/mmpro5-demo.wav

4. And the same for MM Pro 6 (though please see the last sample for audio dropouts in MM Pro 6) (5.8MB):
http://www.domain-hostess.co.uk/users/exp/mmpro6.wav

5. Fifth, MM Fusion (6.5MB):
http://www.domain-hostess.co.uk/users/exp/fusion-final.wav

5. Fifth again, a slight reworking on the beat slicer to see if it was just me (5.3MB):
http://www.domain-hostess.co.uk/users/exp/fusion-final2.wav

6. MM Pro 6 with dropouts (you can hear 3 of them, caused by working on the interface while playing) (11.9MB).
http://www.domain-hostess.co.uk/users/exp/pro6-dropouts-3-of-them.wav

Hear is a slightly longer sample to see if any of you can get better performance out of it than me (19.8MB).
http://www.domain-hostess.co.uk/users/exp/big-time-disc...-for-experiments.wav

I look forward to hearing what you have to say.

Best,
Simon

Open your waveforms in an editor like Sound Forge, Audacity, etc.

The WMPLAYER waveform bears no relationship to the others. It looks like it has been compressed or normalised.

The ABLETON and FUSION-FINAL waveforms are practically identical. I can't see a difference, and it will take me some time to set up an audio analysis.

Are you sure you didn't mis-label the files?

Hi djHSL,

I captured them back in Sound Forge, but I didnt look at the waveforms, I just played them back to check that they sounded as they were through headphones.

Each application gave out a different level through the SPDIF, based on its volume settings.

I look forward to the results of your analysis.

best,
Simon

djHSL,

I have just seen that the graphic equaliser was on - on WM Player. I presume that would explain it?

Best,
Simon

Is it possible for you to post a screen shot of Fusion at the time of playing this file? Show the timeline and the song slicer, with the song slicer zoomed to show the entire file.

Also, can you post a section of the original sound file for this track? You can create it by loading the file in Sound Forge, then cropping it to the required size, and saving it as a new file.

djHSL,

Please find all you asked for in a sub-folder of same directory named extras.

The two close ups show the two different placements of the grid. Both sounded good with metronome, but thought moving the grid might help sound. The beat you can see next to the arrow, is the first main beat after the cresendo...

Best,
Simon

OK ... I think we're getting somewhere.

Looking very closely at the samples you provided earlier, I saw some very slight variations in the waveform.

Your Fusion shots show that you are using beatmixing (in the green box in the playlist) and beat markers in your file. That will cause Fusion to perform time-stretching to fit the beats to its beat grid. That time stretching alters the file.

You haven't done that same time stretching in your WMPLAYER or ABLETON samples. That is why they sound different.

In the absence of any effects, I think you'll find that Fusion sounds exactly the same as the others. Time stretching, by the way, can be classed as an effect. To show the absence, try this test:

1. Create a new playlist.
2. Set the default playlist method to SIMPLE CROSSFADE.
3. Add the track to the playlist.
4. Click the [X] in the song slicer to remove all beat markers from the track.
5. Play the track.

Hear any difference? I don't think you will.

Hi djHSL,

Nice one, though the track was fully warped in Ableton (i.e. fully beat mapped equivalent of MMF).

And yes - taking out the beat mappings in MMF gets the track back to normal.

Thats where it's struggling though - its like you can hear the 'granularity' of the beatmapping.

I just tried changing the slice size to smallest rather than auto - but actually made it worse...

BUT - now just tried to a whole note - and it sounds much better.

If you can try as welland confrim to your ears. This is really great if it solves it. It certainly sounds like it. Just after the cresendo - now I can hear a sort of bubbling water effect - just like in the Ableton version.

It would be nice to get a bit more background to this - as maybe auto is someting to watch out for.

Best,
Simon

Simon, without realising it, you've also managed to select one of the worst cases for time stretching.

Your track has a "phaser" effect. That is so-called because it moves each channel slightly out of phase with the other. This is a real problem for some time stretching algorithms.

I'm speculating, but the fact that you've warped the track in Ableton doesn't necessarily mean that time stretching is being applied. Warping just sets the markers. If it is the only track on the time line, and if you haven't repositioned any of the markers or applied any groove templates, Ableton will just play the track as recorded.

Anyway, the best advice is to keep time stretching to a minimum in your mix.

djHSL,

In the same way as Alberton, I am not understanding why Fusion was time stretching the track - as it was the only track in the playlist?

I am wondering exactly why setting the slice size to a higher value has resolved the issue - technically speaking?

Best,
Simon

...And thankyou djHSL for your time and help.

Appreciated,
Simon

Here's the same track section with the time slice set to 'whole note' instead of 'auto'. It is actually just as good - with 1/2 note selected as well.

http://www.domain-hostess.co.uk/users/exp/big-time-disc...-for-experiments.wav

Best,
Simon

I've noticed especially when modifying the bass, mid, and treble you can easily distort the sound by pushing past the 0 decibal marker, even with compressors set at standard settings.

Try decreasing your master volume on the dial on the far right, to less than 0. If your planning on putting bass on max, then it will need to be -6 minimum.