I decided to take a break from working on my own stuff, so I tuned in to Translucent. I first heard DJ Solaris (Aka Dawn) - Being Here Now You guys with that Psy are blowing my mind! First there's the King (Monk) then TRR rocks my world with a redoux now Dawn's rockin my planet. Great work all!

Then I come across DJ Andre's Set La Fretta Sonica Mescola. If Andre didn't live so far away from me, I would have sworn he did an xcopy of my hard drive! Really nice set Andre. You could use a little polish whith a few transitions. Some keys were off, but the beats are rock solid on.

Now that you've ventured into my world, you probably notice the diffence in audio between all the tracks. This is the biggest frustration when mixing Trance. Some tracks are loud, some are soft. Some are under compressed, some are extensively compressed. Some tracks have great bass, others lack thump. It's so inconsistent it's horrible. Then bring vinyl into the picture and you really have your work after the mix getting it to sound listenable. The only thing to help solve this is plugin's. I'm currently experimenting with WAVES Gold Package. With the right combination of plugin's you can even things out. However, this Gold package is not cheap. It runs around $1,000. You will still need a good mastering limiter beyond this.

I keep telling myself... It's only a hobby.. it's only a hobby....

GIMMIE A BEAT!
Granddaddy

Technology tech·nol·o·gy
1. The process in which one takes a perfectly good digital signal and trashes it by releasing it in an anlog source (see vinyl record).

quote:

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Originally posted by Granddaddy DJ:
Then I come across DJ Andre's Set La Fretta Sonica Mescola. If Andre didn't live so far away from me, I would have sworn he did an xcopy of my hard drive! Really nice set Andre. You could use a little polish whith a few transitions. Some keys were off, but the beats are rock solid on.

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Thanks for the kudos!

But now I am really curious, though I did use a couple of plugins to remove the bassline in a few transitions, so we could hear more of the natural beat pattern then the musical score, what or where do you think the keys were off?

I'd hate to start mixing everything by key. I would be forced to mix music by tone and not by feel, but you never can tell if I may change my mind in the near future. Can you expand on your theory? Please?

Proud member of the "MM Rat Pack!"


[This message was edited by DJ Andre on Jan 24, 2004 at 23:52.]

I don't remember the tracks off hand. P-M me the track list and I'll tell you.

GIMMIE A BEAT!
Granddaddy

Technology tech·nol·o·gy
1. The process in which one takes a perfectly good digital signal and trashes it by releasing it in an anlog source (see vinyl record).

Nevermind the tracks, can you just explain into detail on what you heard, I could probably figure out on your explanations. Thanks.

Reason why I say ignore the tracks, is because you may have the same tracks, but you may not have tweaked the plugins the same way in the transitions, so it would or may even sound different. But a recollection on what you heard and what I could have done to make it more polished, would be highly appreciated.

Proud member of the "MM Rat Pack!"

quote:

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Originally posted by DJ Andre:
.... where do you think the keys were off?

I'd hate to start mixing everything by key. I would be forced to mix music by tone and not by feel

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Andre, not to butt in on this conversation, but ... I found myself having the same reaction about mixing strictly by key ... even though I can see that there are times where an improper key change is clearly the issue in a transition that doesn't work well, still I find myself resisting the notion that my selecting should become so drastically limited.

What I have been experimenting with recently to help me out of this jam is using samples and loops, such as the PLP loops, as key-change helpers in mini-transistions. This isn't something I do a lot of, but if I find that I have an obnoxious-sounding x-fade between two tracks that I'm really committed to using because of what they contribute to the overall flow of the mix, this technique can help me step through it.

<This is that moment.>>

Thanks MadameFly, I do value your input everytime.

I still think it was a damn good mix, but Granddaddy DJ is the expert in my book when it comes to Trance music and in analog/digital sounds, so I do value his suggestions.

Ok, I guess I have to gather up some more Trance tracks. But was I at least close with what you guys envision a "good" trance mix ought to be--minus the old school Trance tracks that some of you like to mix with the new stuff of today? That's all I am wondering at this point? How Hot or Cold am I at so far with this mix?

Proud member of the "MM Rat Pack!"

I think the key detection functionality in MixMeister is exceptionally cool. But you are both right that mixing by keys isn't the be all and end all. Yes it is extremely useful for narrowing down your selections of what to play next but only if you will be mixing two tunes while there is melody playing in each. If you mix at least one of the tunes with only rhythm playing you're not going to get a key clash. There are some keys though that when combined just sound horrid. It's a useful tool in the MixMeisters armoury - but I'd hate to mix by key alone also.

What also interested me was taking a look at some old mixes I had done with versions of MM that didnt have the key detection function. It was interesting to see that some of the best mixes were between tunes in the same key or in complementary keys and some of the nastiest where the keys clashed. I can't detect keys by ear (at least not knowlingly!).

First off, I would like to say and enforce both Madame Fly and TF. I don't 100% mix by using the harmonic scale. However, if I want to "break the harmonic rules" so to speak, I do what MF and TF state: Find a break or create a break using the track, to allow your track to enter without the proverbial "train wreck".

I performed this technique in Granddaddy's Favorites a few times. I wanted to do a mix of some of my favorite tracks. Within the 80 minutes, I wanted to put songs in the mix however, they were not harmonically correct. I used the breakdown where there was an absence of music and laid the next track down. The example is:
M (Above & Beyond Typhoon Dub Mix) - Ayu into
Protect The Innocent (Cream Team Remix) - The Matrix. M is in the key of A# The next track is in the key of F#. Breaking all rules, during the breakdown, the mix came through without a hitch. To make even a larger harmonic quest, from Matrix (F#) into I do love you (last 2 tracks in the mix). I used the drums in Matrix to enter the last track which is in the key of G. A half step move like that would wreck the mix, but again, usiing breaks without music allowed this to be pulled off.

Without knowing the track names, I want to say that you went from a JOOF Recording into another track. There was music on top of music that clashed.

The other thing I might add to the mix is twoard the end, your compressor was pumping way too hard thereby causing distortion. The last song was so distorted I had to turn the volume down.

I'm not trying to be critical Andre, the mix was really good considering that this is your eraly attempts at this Genre. I was trying to give you some pointers and critique the mix. If you dig back into the archives before the Translucent days, my mixes had the same issues. As I learned the software more, I was able to employ my techniques of mixing as I did using turntables into MM. I was mixing keys back in the MM3 days. (YIKES!) and considering there was no "KEY" field as there is in MM5, I used the "YEAR" field to populate the keys. Most commercial mixes (Oakenfold, Van Dyk, Armin, Tiesto etc) use harmonics to perform mixes. Harmonic mixing is the "Unwritten rule". Like most rules, they are meant to be broken at times.


Learning compression, expansion, DC offset, acoustics etc took a ton of time (and I'm still learning). To me, these techniques are very much a part of the mix as song selection and placement. I feel I'm getting closer to my accoustic goals with the latest mixes "Translation CD 1 and CD 2".

I don't want you to think that I want to burst your bubble Andre, The mix is very good, just wanted to help so if you want to do another Trance mix, you might take things into consideration.

GIMMIE A BEAT!
Granddaddy

Technology tech·nol·o·gy
1. The process in which one takes a perfectly good digital signal and trashes it by releasing it in an anlog source (see vinyl record).

Sometimes I seem to get more than I bargain for.

I was too careful to make sure that there were no overlaps on melodies. I was too careful on that, because I was trying to accomplish the pointers I got from TF and Monk last time on my previous underground mixes. I agree the last track was a weird track, but I wanted to end it with a crazy sucker. So that's what you heard. And I was gonna say something about it to prepare you all for it, but I didn't want you to focus on just that one. Hopefully, you know what I mean?

Other than that, the mix was flawless, the beats were in synch, the melodies were chosen in a pattern where the transitions would make sense. I took a longer time classifying in my own way the sub-genres of trance tracks I had to work with. So I did check on that, and reassured myself, of no glitches that would sound too obvious.

Dude, you sound more like a Scientist? Dude, the only way music has a chance to sound "almost" the same is if it's recorded on the same recorder, on the same type of media, by the same artist, by using the same beats, by using the same settings, by using the same studio, editing, remixing, hardware or software, and maybe the same dosage of drugs. And even another day the artist will screw around with the settings, and may never able to figure out what he did to make it sound like the day before. Keep in mind that these Trance artists are not really musically enclined musicians or properly trained recording engineers.

All in all, have you ever heard of a full mix that made you say, "Hey! That is what I am trying to achieve!" Tell me that, so I could hear it myself also, and catch your point.

Other than that, is this a Trance Mix or not? That's all I want to know? I don't play KBs, I don't program the drum machine, and I don't write down the melodies, I am just mixing the pre-recorded music and trying to enjoy it at the same time. And hopefully the crowd dancing, drinking, making love also enjoy the mix in a "live" arena or do they sit there and analyze the mix like you just did?

But please give my mix a second chance and maybe I can get a second opinion from Monk or from another Trance DJ? Please ignore the last track.

Proud member of the "MM Rat Pack!"

quote:

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Originally posted by DJ Andre:
Other than that, the mix was flawless, the beats were in synch,

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Yup, I agree

quote:

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Dude, you sound more like a Scientist? Dude, the only way music has a chance to sound "almost" the same is if it's recorded on the same recorder, on the same type of media, by the same artist, by using the same beats, by using the same settings, by using the same studio, editing, remixing, hardware or software, and maybe the same dosage of drugs.

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Well, Audio engineering is science. The science of the Physics of sound. Mixing music is Mathematics!

Yes, I own a few Mix CD's from different artists, different studios that have the same tonal balancing. This is the post production part of a DJ's mix. The CD's that I am in reference to are: Anjunabeats Volume One. Probably the best sounding Mix CD I own. Above & Beyond's audio engineering for this cd is FLAWLESS. I don't know if they did it or had someone else do it for them, but it is by far the best sounding mix CD. Every track is equally balanced which is what a good mix CD should strive for.

The others are: Universal Religion - Armin van Buuren. I know the AVB crew, and I questioned what Armin used to eq this mix. He sent it out to an enginner who now does all of the engineering for the Armada record label.

Tiesto's Nyana is equally balanced.

Nukleuz Album Sampler promo Mixed By Ed Real (Promo Only) Although, I think this CD should have more highs and lows, it's still equal across the frequency spectrum.

This is one of the things I like about listening to the Psy Mixes lately. The audio quality on those CD's are beyond belief! If most music was engineered in this manner, it would sound awesome! The frequency response is very fluid across the 20-20K spectrum, and there is very little compression applied which allows the full fidelity of the song to come accross. TRANCE ENGIEERS TAKE NOTE!

The only Trance engineers that I think comes close to this is again, AvB's engineer and ID&T's engineer. Above & Beyond's CD Engineer (Not their Vinyl Engineer!) They are very good in not over compressing an audio track, and maintaining the maximum amount of fidelity through the track.

quote:

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All in all, have you ever heard of a full mix that made you say, "Hey! That is what I am trying to achieve!" Tell me that, so I could hear it myself also, and catch your point.

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Yup, as I stated previously. Anjunabeats Volume One and Armin Van Buuren's Universal Religion

quote:

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Other than that, is this a Trance Mix or not? That's all I want to know?

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Yup, it is.

quote:

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And hopefully the crowd dancing, drinking, making love also enjoy the mix in a "live" arena or do they sit there and analyze the mix like you just did?

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I'm not dancing or drinking. I'm in my living room taking a break from doing my own thing! Of course I will be more critical sitting and lounging than if I were out dancing.

quote:

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Please ignore the last track.

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The last track is fine, just way over compressed. BLUE is not a good compressor for Trance. You can't Compress and EQ Trance in the same way that you would with other Genres because of the transient passages of the music.

GIMMIE A BEAT!
Granddaddy

Technology tech·nol·o·gy
1. The process in which one takes a perfectly good digital signal and trashes it by releasing it in an anlog source (see vinyl record).

Oh boy! I got some shopping to do, thanks!

As for the Blue Compressor, it is set to only smooth out the loudest peaks. I used a low ratio of 4:1 and set the threshold between +3dB and +4dB to catch the louder points of the mix. I did this so I won't squash the mix or completely remove its dynamic range. Unless, of course I would be compressing for a radio station and want everything to sound as loud as possible, but in this case I didn't do that.

Thanks! I still love your mixes no matter how you "really" do it!

Proud member of the "MM Rat Pack!"

Riddle me this? If all this music seems to be digitally recorded, why do they finalized it down to analog vinyl?

Proud member of the "MM Rat Pack!"


[This message was edited by DJ Andre on Jan 25, 2004 at 9:30.]

Sigh

I'll go back to my corner and promise not to talk out of turn or until spoken to any more.

NO BEATS!
Granddaddy

Technology tech·nol·o·gy
1. The process in which one takes a perfectly good digital signal and trashes it by releasing it in an anlog source (see vinyl record).

Proud member of the "MM Rat Pack!"

I've not listened to this mix yet...proper feedback when I do but this comment from Andre just grabbed me:

quote:

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Originally posted by DJ Andre:
I took a longer time classifying in my own way the sub-genres of trance tracks I had to work with. So I did check on that, and reassured myself, of no glitches that would sound too obvious.

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I do that myself all the time, I can't get my head around the thousand or so ever changing sub genres of Trance half the time so I kind of have my own mental notes on the mood or texture of the tune. I find this is the key aspect in communicating the elusive "journey" concept that we've discussed in the past. You can then start to think about (for example) starting way off in the clouds, and by moving towards different textured tunes you can bring the listener down to earth, into a dark forest or shoot them up into space.

Just thought I'd drop that in as you've asked what I meant about "journey" in a mix in the past and I've failed to communicate what I mean...maybe this helps?

--
BOOM!

It sure does, Monk. I have been able to only classify the Trance tracks into these sub-genres--excuse me if I am way off:

1) Trance Hardcore (a lot harder, sounding more industrial, and louder peak beats, not necessarly fast music, it could be anywhere from 130BPM to 150BPM)

2) Trance Smooth (softer, jazzier at times, and lighter on the beats.)

3) Trance Pop (more for radio, has a lot of vocals, and usually is a re-mix of an old pop tune or pop vocalist doing a trance remix.)

4) Trance Dub (has samples of vocals, not really singing, but it has them every now and then and can also have a Hardcore or Smooth feel.)

5) Trance Vocal (Singing trance track and could have an either Hardcore or Smooth feel.)

Monk, I'd like to know what you can consider:

a) Starting from way off the Clouds?

b) Down to Earth?

c) Into a Dark Forest?

d) Shoot them up into Space?

Let me know, and please make an effort and hear this mix. I started with Smooth Trance, then moved on to Hardcore Trance, and ended it with a Dub Trance. So much for telling a story.

Proud member of the "MM Rat Pack!"

Really it's a subjective thing, for me trance is a very "visual" form of music in that I can listen to tunes and my mind will conjour up images to go along with them - it's sort of like the association tricks memory experts use I suppose. Like I said my definitions aren't really the "official" ones but they work for me.

So to follow the pattern mentioned above it could start with a) something with light atmosperic and ambient melodies with notes held and echoed with fairly clean bassline and beat that conjours up images of floating or flying.

b) down to earth might cut out the atmosperics a bit and introduce intricate tribal patterns to the beat

c) darker sounds, more thump beat and squelch in the bassline and twisted melodies that sound wrong yet right - sort of disorentating tunes

d) probably higher tempo with a more si-fi element to the noises, rushing driving basslines and melodies that come flying at you.

Like I said it is a bit subjective and someone else listening to the same tracks could go off somewhere else entirely but so long as they are going somewhere it's all good.

--
BOOM!

1) Not neccesarily......It's safer to just call this genre hard trance. Hardcore generally refers to not only how hard the music is, but usually there is heavy MC work involved.

2) This is a bit of a gray area. "smooth" trance could mean a lot of things. Chicane like ambience? Signature Mirco de Govia melodies? It's all relative.

3) Pop - Trance crossovers. The stuff they try to tell you is trance. It has it's own little niche, but if you try to tell almost any trance fan that this is really trance, their could be a bit of anger.

4) Dub simply refers to the vocals being taken away just like in any genre. Nothing to do with the actual music as you already observed. Usually little snippets of the vocals left.

5) Vocal Trance - yep pretty self explanitory.

a) Don't worry to much about the genres here. Just how it makes you feel, and what your personal style is. Some DJs like to start of hard, while others like to pull you in with a lighter ambient feel. Just personal taste, but the rest of the set should be structured according to the way you started.

ex. If you start off hard, then you should have a lighter section somewhere around the middle, but then take it back up again and finish hard. If you start of softer, then you should build till the middle then bring it down towards the end. This is just my personal opinion though.

b) Down to Earth- whatever has that dirty gritty heavy bass feel.

c) Dark Forest - It depends really. Generally speaking though you want something with a dark, maybe techy edge. Or on the other end of the spectrum, a more progressive touch.

d) Up into space - vocals, vocals, vocals.....conserve the huge melodic, vocal track for this one. Vocals can accomplish this the best, especially if you sprinkle them lightly throught the rest of the set, and then slam in a huge vocal track. There's nothing like vocals to add that little bit of cream on the top of any set to shoot the listeners into the stratosphere. Beautiful female vocals over a flowing melody will accomplish just this.
ex. Oceanlab - Satellite or Sky Falls Down....just to name a couple.

Don't worry about genre classifications! If it works who cares?

I think we are making a lot of progress just talking about the different styles this format has. Thanks!

Proud member of the "MM Rat Pack!"